Take me to the River
Join social ecologist and river restoration expert Dr. Siwan Lovett in conversations about the ideas, issues and opportunities that relate to our connections with nature and each other. This podcast offers open, honest and practical insights for us to reflect on in our daily lives.
Take me to the River
The Power of Visual Storytelling: Marine Science to Graphic Recording with Dr. Sue Pillans
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In today's episode, Siwan sits down with Dr. Sue Pillans, a marine scientist, artist and children’s author who specialises in creative and visual communications to help people “picture their ideas”. As a graphic recorder, Sue draws discussions and presentations in real-time to visually capture and convey information, ideas and concepts. Sue has worked with over 65 organisations across Australia and the Southeast Asian region using visual storytelling to help make the complex simple and the simple compelling. Sue also combines her love of marine science and art to bring creativity into classrooms as her alter ego, “Dr. Suzie Starfish”. As a children’s author and illustrator, her picture books engage and educate children about the wonders of the ocean.
Dr. Pillans' unique ability to translate spoken words into vibrant visual stories brings the passion and commitment of river conservationists to life. As she shares her transformative path from marine scientist to visual storyteller, we explore the profound impact of visual communication, particularly when communicating with diverse audiences, including First Nations communities. From capturing complex scientific concepts to inspiring the next generation about ocean conservation, Sue's journey underscores the importance of creativity in promoting environmental awareness and cultural sensitivity. We close our conversation by discussing imaginative and fun ways to engage children in environmental education and action by using the power of storytelling to inspire change.
Learn more about Dr. Pillans' work at her website: drsuepillans.com.
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Speaker 2:So Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as well. She was actually the first part of my visual communications business. I started with her Basically. I just started as a Facebook page to introduce my love of the oceans through art, and so I would put up each week a painting that I'd done of a certain interesting marine animal, and then I'd provide the scientific facts underneath it, things like, you know, sea cucumbers that you know can vomit up their guts when a predator comes along, and how cool's that you know. Just to engage in a slightly different way in my science communication was you know fun and colourful, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Well, Sue, it's absolutely wonderful to have you with us today. I know we only met a few weeks ago, but I feel like we're on the same page, so to speak. I hope it's the same for you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It was so wonderful to meet you and the team recently at the Australian Stream Management Conference and I really appreciate the invitation to be on your podcast. I can't wait, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:So the Australian Stream Management Conference I've always thought is one of the best ones because it's one that brings together practitioners who are out there every day on the river. And can you tell a bit about how you came to be there and what your role was at this conference of stream practitioners?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, I have to say the word I used to describe that conference was amazing. Not only, obviously, the content that I got to hear, but also just the passion of the people there and the inspiring work and the commitment that they have to trying to improve the management of our rivers and catchments. It was just amazing for me and, yeah, to be invited by the team the conference team was a great invitation. I was very proud to be part of that event and, yeah, look, when I get to hear stories like that, the drawing just sort of comes naturally as a graphic recorder. So it wasn't. It was a really inspiring event to draw out and draw attention to.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great that you can say that, because that's my tribe. So you know we each have our tribes and that was definitely my tribe. I love that conference it's I think I went to the first one in 1999, so I have been going for a long time and yeah yeah, it's just one of those really joyful gatherings of people who share that passion as you said that commitment for rivers it's a great word, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:So tell us what you were doing in your role as graphic recorder, because some of our listeners might not know what that even is. That's a very good question. Yeah, it is. So tell us what you were doing in your role as graphic recorder, because some of our listeners might not know what that even is. That's a very good question.
Speaker 2:If you haven't seen a graphic recorder before, it's a way of visually capturing information and concepts in real time, and I'm an analogue or a hand-drawn graphic recorder. So I use pens on paper. So I'm not a digital artist, but I do everything in real time in front of people on a board using pens on the paper. So I'm not a digital artist, but I do everything in real time in front of people on a board using pens on the paper. And so I'm there to actively listen to the discussions, whether it's presentations could be a workshop, it could be a panel discussion.
Speaker 2:Throughout this conference, we had workshops, which you were obviously a part of and held a wonderful workshop, and then we had keynote presentations as well. So I was listening to all that information, all the discussions, and then visualising the content through the use of words and pictures to create a visual story, which ended up being on a large whiteboard, and the imagery was obviously all inspired through stream management and all the different topics that I was able to listen to. So that's what a graphic recorder does I'm there to listen, I draw out the information and then I create a visual story for everyone to be able to look at throughout the conference and then obviously have this picture of all your stories at the end of the conference, rather than you know, lots of reports and dot points et cetera.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's just visualising information and listeners, we will actually put a picture of what Susie created, along with everyone there, so you can actually see what this looks like. I was so excited that Sue was going to be doing this, because I actually do respond really well to a visual story rather than lots and lots of facts, and so those presentations that captured me at the conference were the ones that had lots of photos or which had a lot of emotion in it.
Speaker 2:How do you get?
Speaker 1:emotion into your stories.
Speaker 2:Look, I listen because my role is more about listening than the drawing. The drawing is the tool that I use to translate and put the information on the page. Emotion is one of the big things that I listen for. So people's voices change, you know they're up, they're down or they repeat certain messages, and so I'm actually if people the more emotive you know, the better really, because I know what's actually important to that presenter. We can always have PowerPoint and people are talking to the PowerPoint and you know we go along and I'm like, oh yeah, that's interesting, that's interesting. But then the voice changes and you can hear it and obviously people can see it in the audience and I'm capturing it real time in this picture. So, yeah, it's very important for me as a graphic recorder to be listening the entire time for every event, every session. I can't be turned off. I have to be on at all times. And, yeah, it's very important to listen to the people's voices because that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:It's actually a lot like facilitation. You know I do a lot of facilitation as well, and when I'm facilitating you are totally engrossed in what's happening in the room. So you're looking at the body language, you're looking at the intonation, you're, you know, clocking the person in the back corner who's hopefully not gone to sleep, or you're watching the person with the really closed body language who you know is gearing up to ask a question. So there's a lot of that that you actually also have to, I guess, take in. How do you cope with well, or do you cope with like a sensory overload, because I find myself quite exhausted at the end of the day when I facilitate?
Speaker 2:I must say that I'm definitely exhausted by the end of the day, physically, mentally, every part of it. Throughout the conference, though, or an event or workshop, I'm always. I must be primed. I think you know you kind of, you're ready for it, and so you know that you can't not listen. It's like I might be a little bit tired towards the end of the day, and I'll be very honest as a graphic recorder, when you're using a pen on paper, let's say at quarter to five you've been there since eight o'clock in the morning it's like don't make a mistake. Don't make a mistake, keep listening.
Speaker 1:Because I'm only human.
Speaker 2:I'm not a robot, so I think I'm just so attuned now to being in the presence of presentations and discussions and important information that I'm on. I'm ready to go and I'll be able to stop at night time and rest again, but it certainly is. Yeah, I would say it's a very exhausting role, but you are so inspired throughout the day that I think that's what keeps me going, and the food too. So you know. I love my food breaks. People ask me about that too.
Speaker 1:I love the facilitation and I actually love public speaking, because you have all this anticipation beforehand of oh, I could say that, or can I say that in a different way, or can I? So there's a lot of preparation that goes ahead of time, and I know that you actually do a lot of prep too. Do you want to let our listeners know how much? You don't just hop up there with your pen and start, you know?
Speaker 2:no no, I think, and I think people do think it's just oh, she just turned up and just here she goes and look, every graphic recorder is different, but we all do prepare for an event, particularly when it's a very like a couple of days of an event. So in my position as an analog graphic recorder using pen on paper, I've as I think I explained this to you at the conference I have what's called real estate on the page. So you've got a couple of days of a conference, you've got all these great keynote presentations and workshops that you have to fit on a, let's say, 1.5 metre piece of paper and everyone's talking about really great things, but you can't capture it all. So my role is obviously to tell the client at the start. For such an amazing agenda like I can only capture key messages and repeated messages and try and show the concepts and how things are linked together or connected. And so we talk through the agenda.
Speaker 2:I always talk through the agenda with my clients prior to so I get an idea of the event, what they're trying to get out of it, who is the audience? The audience is very important so that I can make sure that I'm meeting their visual needs of the client and also the visual needs of the audience, because that's what the story is actually created for. So, yeah, I do put a lot of preparation into having a look at the agenda. I'm a very proud science nerd, so I love looking up who's running the event, what their aims are, what their strategic plans are, understanding their business, so that I can actually provide and create a visual story for everybody in that room that relates to everybody and they can use it time and time again. So, yeah, there is in my for my role. I do prepare quite a bit to make sure there's enough room on the page to capture all of that amazing content.
Speaker 1:I love that idea of real estate. That's another one that we talk about when we're looking at riparian management, and we talk about the real estate for native fish or native animals or trees, and it's all about.
Speaker 1:Well, they all need their little bit of real estate. You've got to create their home or their habitat. So tell me, how did you start doing this? Like you trained as a marine scientist and we're going to get to that. But what made you put pen to paper and decide, oh, it's a great idea. I'll stand up in front of a whole room of people and fill this 1.3 metre page where everyone can see any mistake I do. It just sounds like a knife edge for me. It doesn't sound so good when you put it like that?
Speaker 2:Very good question. And basically so. I started my small creative business called Picture Ideas, a visual communications business, almost 10 years ago now. 10 years ago, I did not know that a graphic recorder was a job. I didn't know it existed, no idea.
Speaker 2:And very quickly leading up to the moment that I became a graphic recorder, I was, you know, a marine scientist, I was in research, I went into government and then one day I was in a role I didn't particularly like and I happened to have these creative magazines I looked at on the weekends and I saw this article of this woman at a whiteboard with a pen and she's drawing, and I remember the key words were I actively listen and I use my skills to draw out people's stories. And I read the article and I went I could do that. I love the sound of that. So I quit my job which is not really me, if people know me, I have lists and I don't really like a lot of risk but quit my job and the next day I started my business and it's been going like that ever since. So for almost 10 years I've been doing this role. So yeah, no, I didn't like. It's quite amazing to think you don't know that occupation actually exists. And then I had quite the diverse career leading up to that.
Speaker 2:I really think that the reason I can do my role as a graphic recorder so to be able to interpret information quickly, synthesize information, hear the key concepts and draw them out is because I do have that scientific background. You know, through research and our PhDs we've always had to synthesise and interpret information quickly and make sense of it and I think that's really helped. And the other side of it I've always done art as a hobby, so I haven't been to art school, I've learnt on every job that I've done. I'm self-taught and I think having the artistic side with the scientific side obviously helps in my role, particularly when I do conferences of a scientific nature where there's where I'm quite familiar with some of the content. So, yeah, it's an art and science sort of combination and love that brought me to this interesting role that you've just explained does sound quite interesting in front of all of those people.
Speaker 2:But I actually, I actually I'll have to say I turn off when I'm in really big conferences or any. It doesn't matter what group setting it is, but I could be in the room with a thousand people drawing live and I am so focused on what I'm listening to I totally forget people are behind me and I could be humming or singing or you know, and in my zone, when you put it like that, we're like, oh, they can see everything you're doing. I'm like, oh yeah, I forget that. But I think that's a good thing that I'm so in tune with the stories that are being told.
Speaker 1:Well, it sounds to me like you're in flow. You know that moment when everything seems to be going right and I do experience those moments Sometimes. Sometimes when I'm speaking or facilitating, I know I'm in flow and it's a wonderful feeling because you're just so engrossed and you know that it's all working. But I think what you're saying about the science I was thinking to myself, my goodness she could be talking about me, because I also trained as a scientist, social scientist, and ended up running an Australian River Restoration Centre and you sort of go. So how did that work? I think it's a really good message in there for anyone listening to say look, you know the choices that you make. They really just open up more and more opportunities, I think, and if you're open to that, then you can find yourself in all sorts of weird and wonderful and amazing places. Oh, absolutely so. I love that story, Thank you. Yeah, what was the very first conference that you did?
Speaker 2:What was the very first one, the very first was for CSIRO and I was flown up to Torres Strait Island and there was a workshop for the scientific team of CSIRO who look after the Torres Strait Island lobster fishery and so they go up a couple of times a year and they talk to all of the First Nations communities there who fish and they explain and share the science and the science, the fishery science for that fishery is actually really complicated.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to pretend that I understood it all because it's quite advanced, but that was my very first job to come in and actually draw out the science for this workshop and it was such an amazing workshop Like I still remember it vividly and the engagement with the First Nations communities there was just remarkable to the point where a lot of when I draw a lot with First Nations communities and they're very quiet sometimes they don't, you know, they don't have to talk for the sake of talking, you know.
Speaker 2:So when it was a very sort of quiet workshop to start with and they were watching me draw and it's like, oh, there's, not many people have seen me, obviously, in Torres Strait drawing at a scientific workshop and slowly throughout the day they would come and start looking at the drawings and you know, having a look at how I've visually captured the science of their fishery, and at the end I actually had some of the elders of the community come up and draw with me and draw their totems and explain things to me and how that related to what I was doing and that moment to me. I just went. This is my very first job. I'm so excited. I'm going to do this forever, so it was a wonderful first experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was very lucky. That's just an extraordinary story. It just makes me think about a lot of the work that we're currently doing on the Upper Murrumbidgee and on other rivers where we're trying to work with First Nations people. I just wonder whether, if we did that visually, we'd get a much better option or an outcome than we would than trying to, you know, sit in rooms and make meeting notes.
Speaker 2:First Nations are the, you know know, the very first storytellers or visual storytellers. So, you know, I remember growing up as a child having a look at the cave drawings and I mean they've been telling stories and visual stories since time began. So to be able to engage at that level where they can see it and get it straight away, rather than going, oh, here's, you know, 50-page report and here's a few scientific papers which is fine, but you do have to, you know, you need to relate to the audience and visual storytelling, to me, is so powerful that it relates to any audience if you can capture the information in a relatable way.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's fantastic. As you're saying that, I'm thinking about this extraordinary experience I had up in Karratha on the Dampier Peninsula, and my brother-in-law is an archaeologist, oh wow. And he took me out to see these cave. They're stone and written in yeah, it's written, but there's it's carved into the rock and there's a particular image of someone who's obviously come off a boat with a big hat and you can just tell it's people landing and local people just drawing this really significant event. And it's incredible. And when you get your eye in all over this Burrutt Peninsula, on this really red red rock, are stories, like it's just a living story. And you walk, oh, look, there's a fish or there's a dolphin or there's a, and it's everywhere. It's just and it's so different from the dot paintings that we often see, but it's very much that visual storytelling. This is what's happened here. This is where we're going, this is what we're doing and it's still there.
Speaker 2:I hadn't made that connection before. Yeah, no, visual storytellers amazing.
Speaker 1:Really storytellers Amazing, really, really good. So we need to understand, then, how the lady sitting in front of me with this beautiful sea dragon on her top there obviously marine. Yes, how did a marine scientist end up being a visual storyteller? Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, good question. That's a long time ago. I think I finished my PhD in 2006. So I've always had an affinity with nature. I grew up in regional Queensland, where you're climbing trees and going to the beach, and I think I was like three or four and I learned to swim at the beach. I just jumped in and off, I went. My parents were there, by the way, that's good to know. Yeah, and then I like to add that in because some people are like, oh, that's a bit dangerous. So, yeah, always had that affinity with nature, loved the environment.
Speaker 2:My very first time seeing the Great Barrier Reef was on our September school holidays. I was 11 years old. Mum and Dad took us up to Cairns Off. We went in a big boat, jumped in the water and I think I can still remember just going. What is this? There's a whole underwater world under the water here. That's, you know, it's bustling with life, it's got color, all the noises popping and crackling, and I just fell in love with oceans. It's just that was it like? That's, that's my thing, that's my saltwater heart. That I like to say.
Speaker 2:And so from there I always, you know, when you're growing, what do you want? To be a ballerina or an astronaut or a fighter pilot and I always I think I always said, oh, marine biologists be really good, but I didn't really know what that meant. So then I went and did you know science degree and honours and a PhD in marine science and just fell in love with it really. But then I also then moved through to government and I utilised all of my scientific background. But then I moved into different departments and and certainly did more things like regional development, industry development, but the marine science has always been my passion and so, yeah, to move into that whole visual storytelling, I did create an alter ego, dr Susie Starfish.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're going to come to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was my way to engage with a different audience through children, where I thought I could make a really big difference, to start young and share my love of the ocean with them through stories, through words and pictures, through colour and having fun. And so I think that's where my journey has landed, where I can still use all of my love of marine science through my engagement as Dr Susie Starfish, but then using all of my marine science and learnings to apply to graphic recording in terms of being able to synthesise and interpret information. So that's my little journey.
Speaker 1:What was your PhD?
Speaker 2:on the effectiveness of no-take marine reserves in Moreton Bay Marine Park. So, to make that simple, do green zones work in a marine setting? Yes, and what did you discover?
Speaker 1:The answer is yes.
Speaker 2:That's a good answer to have. Yes, it's not a rocket science PhD, but no one had actually, you know, gone out and got the empirical evidence about green zones in that marine park at that time. And so it was a great PhD, very hands on. And then I was lucky enough, or fortunate enough, to then move into the Environmental Protection Agency straight after my PhD, where they actually reviewed the Moton Bay Marine Park zoning plan, and so my science was actually able to be used and applied on the ground to help make actual new policy decisions for that marine park.
Speaker 2:And one of my most favourite and proud moments, I suppose, was it wasn't just me, it was a team effort and it was political effort. I'm not saying it was just me, but it did help to have the science behind those decisions. And we went from, you know, less than half a percent green zone to almost 16% in the end over a three or four year period of reviewing the plan. So, yeah, that was to me that was a really proud moment. But I've only got one zoning plan review in me. I think that's enough for a lifetime. But you got one zoning plan review in me. I think that's enough for a lifetime, but it certainly gave me a very good introduction to government and policy and planning.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you it's also a really good like. Again, the parallels are quite interesting. So mine was, my PhD was on the corporatisation of research and development in Australia in the rural sector, and that was something that was. You know, it was a process of administrative change and of governance, and then I ended up actually working in one of the corporations that I was reviewing a bit similar to you, like working in the organisation that's going to make the policy.
Speaker 1:But I think that the commonality here is also that you can take your science and do your science, but unless you're able to communicate it and put it into a policy context, it's not going to make much difference.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I constantly have scientists saying to me, why don't they just get it? Like we keep telling them that this has to happen or they'll say, right, sure, and I've done this bit of science. Can you now give it to government? It's like, well, no right place, right time. Understand the context. Yes, with some of your graphic recording that you've done of conferences, can you tell whether what you're putting onto the page is going to get used in a way that's actually going to make it really effective by the sort of conference that you're at?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. I can tell sometimes if the client well, they usually tell me what they want to use it for, and so we have that discussion in that preparation phase that I spoke about earlier, where I actually say to them look, I can create this visual in a number of different ways so you can get the most out of it. Or we just do a big picture story and you put it into your strategic plan, you know, or the annual report, and that's that. So I actually make it. I make it quite known to the client that if I draw it a certain way, like I leave white spaces, let's say and I'm showing the connection between your themes that you can actually cut out those individual stories and use it in different ways.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of the time the client does really want to make the most of this visual. They've gone to the effort of getting a graphic recorder in. They've had meetings and planning meetings with me. I'm in the room with their stakeholders, which some of the conversations and topics are quite controversial at times. So it's, you know, you want to have that independent which is me in the room, who's going to be very mindful of the subject matter. So I think in most cases, I do see the picture come to life and I can see how it can be used. It's really then up to the client how and if they use it, because everyone's busy and I hear that a lot. So it's it really is up to the client how they want to use that story.
Speaker 1:Is there any subject matter or conference that you won't visually?
Speaker 2:record? No, I've never come across that so far. I think anything that you, any group discussion, any presentation can be drawn, it really comes down to if it's really sensitive matter. So I've done things like lived experience of, you know, suicide. I've listened to a lot of First Nations important stories that they have to share, and so it's just being very sensitive to the content and ensuring, again in this preparation phase with my clients, what sort of visuals do you not want to see? Because sometimes there are very graphic discussions. So I'm very yeah, again, I'm just very sensitive to the content. I've never not been able to draw something, but yeah, that's a really good question though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's one of those ones where you sort of, yeah, I sometimes get asked to do things and I think, oh, am I the right person to do that? Often with First Nations actually, I get asked. I say, well, I'm not sure that's my role, but can you tell me why you would want me to do that? It's a bit like you're saying why and how do you want to be able to use this visual recording?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and particularly with First Nations communities. My very first question is do the First Nations communities you are working with know one that I will be involved? Two, are they happy for me to be involved? And three, are they okay for me to utilise some of their First Nations drawings or imagery and symbols, or would you like it to be? It's from you know, dr Sue Pillans, I'm a white woman. I'm going to draw it the way I see it. So I'm very upfront about that, because I've had instances where the client and the First Nations have not told, have not shared, that I was in the room or coming along and I'm interpreting things slightly different to what the First Nations would want. So my very first question now for those sort of projects is what do the First Nations communities are they happy with? Are they comfortable with? What do the First Nations communities are they happy with? Are they comfortable with, and are they okay to me to utilise some of the imagery or not? So yeah, I think it's very important to have those conversations up front.
Speaker 1:It's also about protecting yourself, I think you know, because you know you've got to be mindful of the role that you're playing, because you know you're invited into a group or an organisation. They probably know each other better than you know them. But it's about being really clear on your role, isn't it? So that they know exactly why you're there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good point, and particularly everyone like I'm in a business, I run a business. I want to make sure that I make myself proud and I do a really good job. And, as I said before, with this preparation phase, I suppose some clients aren't used to me coming and asking 60,000 questions, but again, I need to yes, you're right protect myself but also meet the visual needs of the client, and I don't know that if I can't talk to you about it, so I might be a little bit much for some people, but I'm so dedicated to the client and their visual needs that I'm going to do the so I can do the very best job for that client and the audience that they're trying to connect with and engage with.
Speaker 1:So, sue, do you think people trust pen and paper more than they might trust someone who's doing a digital or an artificially intelligent generated image?
Speaker 2:Very good question and very topical right now, shuan. Look, I think it's a matter of preference these days, but I do have to say that having a human being or myself as an analogue recorder in a room, pen on paper, I'm right there in front of you, I'm not making things up, I think you can trust that and obviously I'm there if I make a mistake or whatever. It's very humanistic, right. So everyone's a human, we're not robots. But in saying that a digital recorder is also in the audience, uh, they're sitting there and they're actually displaying what they're drawing on a big screen, so you can see everything all of the time. I just think sometimes it's a little bit more humanistic.
Speaker 2:Um, when an analog or someone like myself is there on pen and paper on a big board, it's a big picture story. People can be involved in it. They can come up and have a look at it. They can point at things and go, oh, what about this? And oh, look at the way you drew that. Or you really listened to me. And I'm like, yes, I did. That's why I'm here, and so people can interact and connect with the drawing physically, which I think you know. It's a connection, it's an engagement, it's trust.
Speaker 2:And then when we're talking about things like AI, I have no problem with AI, but I can't see how a robot could be a human and I can't see how they could get the humanistic tones, how people are speaking, the emotions and interpret that these days. Even with machine learning, I think it would take some years for there to be, let's say, a robotic graphic recorder. Good luck to them because they wouldn't have to take breaks like I do. But I think having the human in the room is building trust and a connection with that audience and I really think it's a preference thing for what clients want, and I do see that clients really do want a lot of digital drawings these days.
Speaker 2:I just don't do that medium. I prefer pen on paper. It's just what I've always done and I love the feeling and I love the look and I really just the engagement of that audience with, with this visual story that you can, you can almost touch if well, you can actually, but I prefer you don't while I'm drawing. But yeah, that's to answer that. I hope I answered your question there, joanne yeah, no, no, that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1:And and as you were speaking, I was thinking about spontaneity even though you do all this preparation, there must be moments where it's like, oh, I can, I can add that in oh, absolutely, when you're actually in situ.
Speaker 2:Oh, it happens all the time. It's like oh, oh. And the reason I love that you asked that question is the oh moments, this real estate on the page that I discussed earlier. So you might have seen, at the conference I use a lot of post-it notes and so the post-it note represents the oh moment. That's so good, but will I have enough room? So I actually jot down that really important moment and I put it on my post-it note and then I'm still trying to design and fit in all this content and so I use that as a placeholder throughout conferences, particularly when there's a lot of information.
Speaker 2:So some of the conferences I do with universities will have a full day and there'll be, let's say, 30 to 40 five-minute presentations, one after the other, after the other, after the other, and it's just, it's so full on, and so I've got like 100 poster notes and then in the breaks I will then, you know, catch up and draw all that really important oh moment out. So, yeah, the spontaneity is it's a big thing and I get excited by it, but I also oh, I'm going to catch up, hang on, hang on. What did you say again? So that's why you have to be on all the time. That's why we get exhausted, I suppose, but it's an exciting moment as well, so yeah, good question.
Speaker 1:It sounds exciting. It does sound like you also have to manage that, that overwhelm of oh my god, I've heard so many good things. Which things do I use and and you don't want to, you know, miss anything, but at the same time you must keep a, keep a. I guess this is part of this analytical brain that you're bringing to it. What's the central theme that we're trying to pull out? So, although that's a nice to have, this is actually more important. Is that kind of how you go through it.
Speaker 2:That's exactly how I go through it and that's why those post-it notes, for me, are such an important tool, and one of my favourite things to capture, I must say, are those beautiful quotes. Sometimes in presentations and workshops, there's just that moment and you say that's going in, that's not not going to go in. I'm putting the pen on the paper right now. Everything else can work around that and sometimes that's all people will see when they're looking at this visually. You can see it throughout the coffee breaks, et cetera, and lunches. They'll come up and they'll point and I'm busy, you know, trying to catch up, but I can hear it and to hear the people's voices and their reaction. Remember that, oh, that was so good. And then it links to this one over here when we said that in the morning session. And so it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's, yeah, it's. It's such a good feeling to know that I've captured someone's story and someone's experience in an accurate way which they're really happy to see on the page. So it's yeah, it's an important role, I think, and one that is very independent. I probably haven't mentioned that enough that you can't bring your own bias in. It doesn't matter how much I prepare, it's what I hear on the day, and the other flip side, when you've said there's so much information. Also, when people talk doesn't mean they're saying a lot of things too, so you just have to to keep. They do say a lot of things, but I can't capture everything they say, so I am waiting for the oh moment and um, that's always the most exciting part that's so great.
Speaker 1:Do you keep a record of all the visual stories that you've done like? Do you have like a portfolio of all these different conferences?
Speaker 2:yes, so I keep. I keep photos of everything, but the client keeps the original artwork to digitize and reproduce how they want, whether they put on a mug or up in a wall Wall art I've had a lot of wall art happen over the last few years Mugs and t-shirts. Yeah, no, I keep a portfolio which is all on my website. Every conference and event I do, I put that up as my visual CV, let's just say, because if you don't know it and you can't really understand it until you see it and that's why I have a few time-lapse videos that clients have done too of actually the progression over a couple of days of a conference or a workshop you can see the stories come to life through pen and paper, which I find a really important tool to communicate what I do as well. If you haven't seen me, you wouldn't even know I exist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, I did look through some of those and I really like how sometimes you just use a really controlled palette of colour, whereas on others it's lots of colours that come in.
Speaker 1:And I mean, I love lots of colour as well, and so I was particularly drawn to the part of the website where we actually meet Susie Starfish, dr Susie Starfish. So there's three books that I saw there and they are just stunningly beautiful. And then there's also this amazing mermaid there yourself in a very lovely glittery costume. So tell me about this. She's not even an alter ego, is she? But you're out there talking to kids, so you're actually getting both ends of the spectrum, I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:When did Susie?
Speaker 1:Starfish make her appearance in her first book.
Speaker 2:Yes, so Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as well. She was actually the first part of my visual communications business. I started with her, yeah, so she started, and basically I just started as a Facebook page to introduce my love of the oceans through art, and so I would put up each week a painting that I'd done of a certain interesting marine animal and I'd provide the scientific facts underneath it, things like, you know, sea cucumbers that you know can vomit up their guts when a predator comes along, and how cool's that you know. Just to engage in a slightly different way, my my science communication was, you know, fun and colourful, I suppose, and so I started that. And then I started basically trying to create a series of children's picture books about the ocean.
Speaker 2:And my books are slightly different because I'm from a very scientific background and my drawings are quite scientific. They're not whimsical, let's say. They're very you know that's a fish and that's a crab and that's, you know what it is is what it is when you see it, but it is full of colour and it is full of life and it has this scientific background behind it. And the reason I actually started the series of children's picture books is because throughout my PhD, I was sort of needed a bit of a stress relief. So I decided to start watercolour classes and so I would go each week to this wonderful group of ladies who were retired I was not and they would talk about their trips to Tuscany and they would, you know, paint Tuscan scenes and poppies. And here I was, you know, first, second year of my PhD, talking about, so, about the mud crab, did you know? And I'd talk about their life cycle and you know, when you catch them, you do this and you're in the mud and they're like, wow, that's different. And I'd be painting seahorses and fish and tuna.
Speaker 2:And over a number of years of hearing all of these stories, my art teacher who was amazing and I was still in contact with her today she went Susie, how about you write and illustrate some children's picture books about all of these wonderful things that happen in the ocean?
Speaker 2:And I went oh, what a great idea. So I started and it took me, I think, six years for my very first book to come out, because my very first book called the Great Barrier Thief, so that's all about climate change and coral bleaching on our reef. I couldn't think of a positive end to the story and with children's picture books, not only do you have to empower and engage and excite children, you need to give them a positive outcome. You can't just say, oh, the reef's dead and it's dying, and that's not right and that's not hopeful. So I'm all about positive storytelling and I did find a way to illustrate and draw attention to the issue, with it being a hopeful ending. So that was my first one and then after that I ended up getting a contract for two more books after that. So I have a series of three now.
Speaker 1:And one. It involves an itchy fish. What's that one?
Speaker 2:about. Oh, so my latest book, which was released this year, is called Roger the Wrasse and the Itchy Fishes, which is actually illustrating cleaning stations on the Great Barrier Reef where this tiny little fish called Roger, who's real, goes around and cleans all these really big fish turtles, manta rays, gropers, etc. On his cleaning station, and it really there's two things that I'm trying to illustrate here. One is symbiosis, where this tiny little fish takes all that, let's say the itches off fishes and gets a feed, and then the fishes and the turtles don't have itches anymore, so they feel very comfortable. But it also shows, I think, that no matter how small you are, you can create and do great, great things.
Speaker 2:You can achieve great things which is exactly what you're which is what your Australian um restoration centre does, is this small mighty team you know.
Speaker 1:So there you go. I love that you described as a small and mighty. Someone was saying something about the other day, about my sort of vertical uh, lack of vertical height. I I suppose that's what you'd say and I said, yes, but I've been told I'm small and mighty, so I'll take that Absolutely yes, small and mighty is great. So, sue, we can't leave our listeners not knowing about the middle book in the series. So tell me about that one.
Speaker 2:So the middle book is Cranky Frankie and the Oceans of Trash, which is obviously about plastic pollution and marine debris, and she's a feisty little porcupine fish that goes on a journey, and again with a hopeful ending, of how we can all help to clean up our oceans together.
Speaker 1:Oh, fantastic, that's great, and I do think hope is incredibly important. I have interviewed other people working in the environment sector and I've said you know how do you keep doing this? And they said well, if you don't have hope, then you've got despair. What's the point of?
Speaker 2:living if you're in complete despair, and I do.
Speaker 1:You know it is hard because I know that for a lot of young people, like my son's, 22, and a lot of his friends are saying, oh my God, you guys, you're leaving with this big, you know mess sort of thing. I'm saying well, actually we're doing a lot to recognise that and to set you up so that we can do as much positive as we can. So I'm really pleased that Susie is still writing and do you still get dressed up in your costume and go into schools. Yes, I love a good costume.
Speaker 1:So do I. I love it.
Speaker 2:It's the best way to walk into a classroom, to be honest, or a library or a kindergarten when straight away, the children can see. So I have a dress that's made of the ocean, and then I also have this new mermaid outfit, which you know has lights and things, and then I also have a tutu full of marine debris that I've collected over the last few years, which is just full of plastics which children can touch and feel, and I'm like so the dress is actually what actually washes up on our beaches and we can talk about each piece and say where do you think this came from? And they're like what do you mean? This is all on our beach, this is in the ocean.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yes, so it's really touch and feel, but it's also I grab their attention as soon as I walk in the room and the dress sometimes, I think, is a bit more exciting than Susie Starfish, but that's okay, I've got their attention and then we can dive into the stories together and then we follow it up with art activities to reinforce the science they've learnt through art activities, to make it a bit clearer. So it's just a joy. To be honest, I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see their faces light up and it's just so nice. It's beautiful to be talking at that age, before adults become really lame.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you know it's really nice, I agree.
Speaker 2:I would far rather, like I said, I thought I could make a bigger difference with my ocean optimism, starting with the young ones. And then they have their conversations with their parents and their families because they don't buy the books. Adults have to buy the books and there's nothing better when I, you know, will get a message from a parent through the child to say so. We heard that Dr Susie Starfish was in the classroom today and apparently we need to put all our rubbish in the recycling bin, like our plastics, because turtles can ingest plastics and they might get sick and, unfortunately, they might die. So thank you, dr Susie Starfish, for, you know, providing that education through my, you know, six-year-old child, which is always wonderful, so great feedback, and you can make a difference, you know, through that storytelling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're about to embark on a similar sort of approach. Up around the Cooma area and in the Snowy Mountains we have a tiny little fish called the stocky galaxius which is threatened, and we're wanting people to care about the fish, but we actually don't want them to go and find them. We actually, you know they need to be left alone. So we're working out how do we convey that, and it's often better, I think, to do that through kids, who can then go and talk to their parents. The neighbourhood for this stocky Galaxus is one that you know. You really don't want the trout moving in.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:yes, so it's that sort of a conversation, rather than going to trout fishermen and saying, yes, you know, we don't necessarily want as many trout, which could be a very different reaction yeah, and what I say, what we're trying to do, I agree and what I.
Speaker 2:why I do? What I do is if I think if people can understand or children can understand, a bit more about the environment, a bit more about oceans, they might fall in love with it. If they care about it, they're more likely to want to protect and look after it. So it's, you know, it's starting those conversations, you know, pointing at things, the colourful things in the book, talking through those sorts of things, understanding all these, the diversity on the reef, for example, so that my last book that I was talking about is all about this drawing attention to biodiversity, the importance of it, and that's through colour and storytelling. So I agree with yeah, I think that's wonderful if you can start young and have those important conversations in a positive, positive storytelling way.
Speaker 1:So, sue, it's been wonderful talking to you today, and, as we come to the end of the conversation, we have three questions that we like to ask our guests. Now, I know you're a big marine ocean person, so I suspect I already know what the answer is to this, but do you have a favourite river or waterway or body of water that you just love?
Speaker 2:I love that and, look, I love all rivers and waterways but, as I said, I have a saltwater heart. So, yeah, no, the beach, and you know the ocean and where I often go to, rainbow Beach is probably one of my most favourite waterways.
Speaker 1:Yes, fantastic. And where do you feel most connected to country and to nature?
Speaker 2:I think, look, I try and walk on the beach and in our national parks pretty much as much as possible and I think I feel really connected when I'm there and I'm just looking at the water, just walking through the national park. I think it's the most amazing way to be connected to nature and I what I call is my date with nature. So I love it's the most amazing way to be connected to nature and what I call is my date with nature.
Speaker 1:So I love it. Oh, I love that. Date with nature is a great way to describe it. Yeah, make a date with nature. Oh, that's a lovely idea. And the final question is and I think it's all come through in the discussion that we've had today but what does drive you to do what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, being able to tell people's stories in a unique way which engages with them and others in a way that you can't really do any other way, I think pen on paper. Can you imagine these days, in the world of digital technology, pen on paper can be that powerful? So that's why I do what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you so much. It's been such a wonderful conversation and I know that we'll continue to have many more and, for our listeners, we will put a whole lot of information for you about Sue and, of course, susie Starfish on the show notes that you can go and look up. So thanks again, susie, and have a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, you small mighty team.
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