Take me to the River
Join social ecologist and river restoration expert Dr. Siwan Lovett in conversations about the ideas, issues and opportunities that relate to our connections with nature and each other. This podcast offers open, honest and practical insights for us to reflect on in our daily lives.
Take me to the River
Saving Freshwater Species with Dr. Nick Whiterod
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37% of Australia's freshwater species are facing extinction in the next century. In the words of today's guest, Dr. Nick Whiterod, "it is now a conscious decision not to act."
Native fish populations in Australia are estimated to be less than 10% of their size pre-colonisation. This country has experienced one of the worst records of recent extinctions worldwide, and many more of our species are predicted to be lost in the near future – not unless we act now. Freshwater species have a disproportionately higher risk of extinction compared to terrestrial and marine counterparts, but are often overlooked, with few aware of how much trouble they’re really in. Dr. Nick Whiterod is a leading expert in the field of freshwater species conservation and recovery, and there’s no one better to speak with about this great challenge than him.
Nick is the driving force behind the Science Program at the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth (CLLMM) Research Centre based in Goolwa, South Australia. He is an ecologist with over two decades of experience, conserving and researching freshwater species and ecosystems across South Australia and Australia-side. He has conducted several successful reintroduction projects, contributed to the national listing of more than 50 freshwater fish and crayfish, and actively worked to understand and conserve freshwater fish across Australia, including in the Mt Lofty Ranges and the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth region. Nick was a 2018 Churchill Fellow and recently received the 2023 Unsung Hero of South Australian Science.
In today's show, we unravel the ecological treasures of this breathtaking Ramsar site at the Murray-Darling Basin's end. Nick opens up about the region's unique freshwater ecosystems and the pressing challenges they face, from reduced water flows due to upstream extraction to the historical necessity of barrages that protect the freshwater supply. We discuss the significance of environmental water flows and the complexities of managing water resources across jurisdictional boundaries; dive deep into the urgent need for conservation and the threats faced by Australia's native freshwater species; highlight the importance of First Nations collaboration in conservation efforts, and more.
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Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing stories and inspiring hope with extraordinary people who care for our rivers. I'm your host, dr Shu-Anne Lovett. Today I'm talking to Dr Nick Whiterod, science Program Manager at the Coorong, lower Lakes and Murray Mouth Research Centre based in Goolwa, south Australia Centre. Based in Goolwa, south Australia. Nick is an ecologist with over two decades of experience conserving and researching freshwater species and ecosystems across South Australia and Australia wide. He's conducted several successful reintroduction projects, contributed to the national listing of more than 50 freshwater fish and crayfish, and actively worked to understand and conserve freshwater fish across Australia.
Speaker 1:Nick was a 2018 Winston Churchill Trust Fellow and recently received the 2023 Unsung Hero of South Australian Science. He's a leading expert in the field of freshwater species conservation and recovery and there's no one better to speak with about this great challenge than him. So, nick, thanks so much for joining us today. It's lovely to have you on the program. I want to start by asking you what the view is like out your window this morning, having been to your amazing office down there in Goolwa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lovely to be chatting. Yeah, it's a pretty good view. So we're right on the water's edge, not too far from the barrage on Goolah Channel. So it's one of those things that if you get to see the river or your part of the world daily and you see different things, so you sort of see lots of water birds coming through and fishing along the water and you see lots of people. We're right near a boat ramp as well, so you can see all the trials and tribulations of people trying to launch boats and do all that. But yeah, it's just fantastic to be immersed in the area that we're working on. It's really good.
Speaker 1:There is something about looking out at water and day to day. You know, my office is in my home, so I look out at the park, which is nice.
Speaker 1:But I must say I've now got sort of a backdrop behind me of the upper bidgie whenever I'm on a team's call, and so I often feel like I'm literally sitting in the river, which is kind of nice. But I know that you are. You could go out at any moment and actually get your feet wet yeah, it doesn't really, but occasionally it's a bit bit too much.
Speaker 2:The challenge is really bad to say, but it's not too much out there. But, yeah, or you get conscious that you've been looking at the screen for too long, but it is really lovely to be working on something there, just to stop for a moment and look after it. You can see how I answer the water and see. You know what's going on. It is actually. We're very blessed. It's an amazing spot.
Speaker 1:So tell our listeners a bit more about the Coorong and the Lower Lakes. I know that you're Science Manager for the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth Research Centre. Can you locate people as to where that is?
Speaker 2:So essentially we're based in Galwa, which is about an hour south of Adelaide, but it's right near the Murray Mouth, so it's at the end of the Murray-Darling Basin. So, yeah, we get all the water and everything flowing down. It comes through the Murray and then into the lower lakes. There's Lake Alexandrina, which is the big one, and then Lake Albert flows around through a series of channels, past the barrages to the mouth, but then there's also the Coorong, which is a really interesting long, narrow hypersaline water body. Yeah, so again, it's a really important area internationally. It's a Ramsar site, but big at the end of the basin. It's a really significant and really important area to be looked after.
Speaker 1:So why did they put barrages in? Because I know a lot of our listeners would have heard about the Coorong and the Murray Mouth but they're probably wondering well, why did we end up putting barrages across that? So that you know, whilst it might have done some benefit, it's actually also done some harm to those ecosystems that would have had just a long, regular flow of water going out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was pretty well in response to upstream extraction. So the amount of water it does vary a bit, but I always say it's about 50% of what it was naturally comes down the river now. So this region has lost 50% of its flow. So the barrages were put in place effectively to block the estuary and the marine environment from the freshwater lakes. So it's a really hard barrier and, yeah, essentially it was put in place to make sure that there was freshwater around on the freshwater side. So obviously, if you're reducing the amount of flow that comes down, there'd be a lot greater push-up of the freshwater. So the thing is the barrages were put across the tidal prism so effectively they've cut the estuary off, which is obviously a huge disruption.
Speaker 2:But things have improved over recent years in terms of water. For the environment, the barrages are a really good way of managing the system now and there's fish rays on the barrages, so I guess ideally they wouldn't be there, but under the heavy regulated Murray-Dunham Basin they sort of need to be there at the moment. But the thing is, with climate change and sea level rise, which will impact the region, the efficiency of the barrage is under question. So, into the future, what are the implications. There's already storm surges that have an impact. So, again, it's a really important area and it's a really difficult area, I guess, to manage with so many different things at play and different drivers occurring.
Speaker 1:So when you say they're a hard barrier, having walked on them myself, I know that seals use them a lot as a resting place and they're very much like hanging out where the fish passage is, because they're not stupid. But yeah, we actually almost went through. It felt like a lock to get our boat to go through the barrages and and out. So do they play around with when they're open and when they're shut, or are they mostly always open? Now, how does that work and who makes those decisions?
Speaker 2:yeah. So obviously water managers I say water manage the barrages with um, the department environment and mdba as well. So again it's it's probably reflective of what's occurring throughout the basin that the mandate is to maintain the lakes at a fairly stable level, plus or minus I can't remember what it is probably 10 to 20 centimetres, so keep them quite level. But in recent times there's been a lot more flexibility. They now manage the lakes in a way that promotes inundation of sort of shallow areas over spring and then brings it back down. So there's a lot more management and again that's using the barrages as that management lever and then, so water's coming into the region, you can do something in the lakes.
Speaker 2:Then there's certain ways of getting water down into the Kurong. So the Kurong it's a reverse estuary, so it's seawater at its closest point to the mouth, but 90 kilometres down it's saltier than the ocean and it's a one-way. There's a little bit of flow that historically came in from the southeast of South Australia, but predominantly the flows have come from the Murray, so it's a one-way, narrow sort of water body that's quite difficult at times to get fresh water down into. It does happen, though. The recent flooding has shown that it gets quite fresh under the right amount of flow coming down and also, again, the right management in different ways. Wind is a big driver for the system, so playing with operation at different times, under different flows and different winds can have huge benefits to certain parts of the region. Huge benefits to certain parts of the region.
Speaker 1:I have tried to camp actually on the Coorong and we have a camper trailer that has a tent that pops out the back, but it was so windy we didn't put the tent up. So it's a really wild place and of course most people would remember Storm Boy and the pelican Mr Percival down there. It sounds like a fascinating system and and I know many years ago I was doing some work on a particular plant called a rupia and there was a. They were talking about the Coorong being in almost a tipping state, where it would go from, or I can't quite remember whether it would be algal dominated to, is it the riparian vegetation dominated? Anyway, has that tipping point been reached in some parts and are we accepting that we've got new ecosystems emerging?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the real challenge about how to manage anywhere, particularly in the current, about what the desired state is. What do we go back to? Do we go back to a natural state that we're trying to achieve, or are we moving our thinking along under the current constraints of the system? So yeah, root gear, again, is a really important plant in the co-op and it fluctuates in terms of its abundance and comes back at certain times and then, when the system is stressed, it sort of drops out. Yeah, it's really complicated. Again, there's a lot at play there and there's a lot of work by a lot of people at the moment to try and, let's just say, work out what state we want for the Kural moving forward and then, yeah, again, bringing in what the implications of climate change for the region are, how that sort of influences, how we view the system and what we view as a healthy, functioning um, yeah, curon and region. So yeah, again, it's quite complicated, quite complex it's all those competing demands, isn't it not?
Speaker 1:I was interested when you were saying about 10 to 20 centimeters depth. People are going what? Like that's tiny, but uh, it's actually vitally important for water birds, isn't it? That's why so um such a critical ecosystem for the Ramsar migratory birds in particular, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. The Coorong, the whole region, is relatively shallow but it has mudflats through the Coorong which wading water birds. That's where they get their food, that's their habitat. So it's that thing and it's always amazing. We've got birds that come to the Coorong and they fly off all around the world and it's always quite amazing that that happens. And so, yeah, having those habitats for water birds is really, really important and then managing the system for that. But then again, I know I'm saying complicated and complex quite a bit, but there's other demands, other parts of the region that need water and need water at different times. So there's obviously fish that are moving through the system. There's the freshwater side, as I mentioned, that needs water at times. So, again, there's a lot of people that are working on that balance and that trade-off and trying to optimise when water's sent to different spots under different conditions to get the best outcomes.
Speaker 1:So we've talked about plants and we've talked about birds, but I know that your first love is fish, and one of the fish species or the type of fish that have really been impacted are the diadromous fish. We had a talk with Wayne Costa about freshwater eels a while ago and he was telling us the sad story of watching them.
Speaker 1:I think they put tags into them and they go out to sea and then when one of the tags sort of suddenly, I think they can get a temperature level on them and when it sort of gets a bit warm, it's actually because it's been eaten, which is a bit sad, but what sort of diadromous fish have you got going up and down through the Coorong now that the fishways are there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So this is the only place in the whole Murray Delivin that has an estuary and has an opening to the sea. So there's a huge range of species that come in and again, with the barrages, when they were installed, there wasn't a hell of a lot of thinking about those environmental impacts, and particularly the impacts on fish species. So those dinodamous ones have a requirement to spend some time in the freshwater and then head out to the estuary or the ocean to spawn or complete their life cycle. So now with the fishways, there's been a whole range of species that have recovered it's probably not the word, but have improved. So there's congoli, there's common galaxids, there's lampreys, which are pretty interesting species.
Speaker 1:Ugliest fish in the world? I reckon yeah.
Speaker 2:When there was reports of their numbers had increased through some surveys that occurred, they had to put out a press release saying oh, don't worry, they've got sucker. That sucks on the fish, don't worry, it's not harmful to your children, you're allowed to go in the water, don't be scared, all these kind of things. But it's, yeah, just one of those amazing species that you see. But that fish, the connection and then the ability for fish to move through the system is one of the big restoration outcomes that has occurred in the Murray-Darling Basin. In theory, fish can now travel from the ocean all the way up to Lake Hugh and I think this Larry, the Land Prey that people track that has moved up to Mildura at least. So it's moving upstream into the freshwater, having come in from the ocean. But it's also about the resident bream species and mullet being able to move through the system and utilise habitats that they need as well. So connection is critical in a system like this, but many systems so would the Coorong have had pulses, like we often hear?
Speaker 1:like connectivity, I think most people sort of get, but in some of the work in the environmental flows we know that they're actively putting water down at particular times to give a pulse to the river like the spring pulse. Would that have continued down to the Coorong or would it be dissipated because of the size of the area?
Speaker 2:Yes, it definitely would have and that does occur.
Speaker 2:So I guess, yeah, it's quite hard to explain without a map. There is a map behind us but I won't worry about using that. But the water will come down into the mouth and so some of the water obviously goes out the mouth, but it also then shuts down to the coral. So again, there's a whole trade-off between getting water down for the needs of the coral at certain times, but also getting water out the mouth and trying to maintain the mouth open as much as possible but then also providing attractive flows for those diatomaceous fish you mentioned and then again, on the freshwater side, ensuring that there's that variation that some of the small-bodied fish and some of the other species need to promote spawning in spring but also allow recruitment over summer and through the autumn through that system. So, yes, there's definitely pulses. Again, it's a complex management of the water, all sort of on the back of there not being the water that there was down to the system. So it's sort of managing it as best as possible, which is challenging, with lots of competing demands.
Speaker 1:It is. I do remember being at an event once and I think they were talking about environmental water going through Victoria, so it must have been in Victoria. And someone was saying an event once and I think they were talking about environmental water going through Victoria, so it must have been in Victoria, and someone was saying, oh, but you haven't used all that water up in Victoria. It's going to get wasted if it goes through to South Australia. How often do you come by? You know, hear that these days, like I know that you know for a long time. I mean, I've been in this business 25 years now. So 25 years ago it was very much. This is our water and we're going to keep it within our state or jurisdiction as long as we can, particularly if you're maybe the upstream states and South Australia is always going. We need more. We need more. What do you think in terms of how people's understanding has gone of the concept of river health, not necessarily respecting jurisdictional boundaries?
Speaker 2:I think it definitely has improved, but there's definitely still that mindset of, yeah, any water coming past your area and we're all quite localised in our thinking at times, but we still, yeah, occasionally hear water going out the mouth of the Bay River, but also the Murray is a waste. Yeah, that's still something that you hear quite often and it doesn't sort of appreciate benefits. So, even for marine nearshore pippies or cockles, they need a freshwater flow out the mouth for their food source and then obviously some of those estuarine species need freshwater inputs into their environment. So, yeah, it still occurs. I've lived and worked in Mildura and Albury and back in South Australia.
Speaker 2:It's funny, I always like telling this one about the perspective. So when you're in upstream, people go, you've got to get the headwaters right and the benefits flow downstream, and then when you're down at the lower end of the system, it's rivers die from the mouth up. So it definitely is that perspective where people are viewing it. We all do it. We all definitely do it. You view the world from your understanding and your part of the world. But I think, yeah, it has improved, but I think it's still a challenge that we all need to sort of consider, that we need to, yeah, be thinking on a broader scale and seeing where our part of the world fits in with the rest of the system. Definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would be very guilty of saying we have to start upstream, given that we've been doing our big campaign on the upper Murrubidji. That gets less than 5% of its flow, but I am fully aware of where the water goes, so I'm fine about it going all the way out to the Coorong. It's a fabulous place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Things. If it's not one or the other, necessarily, you can have multiple benefits of water coming down the system at different spots and flooding out the floodplains and coming back here and then making its way down. So, yeah, I think we're probably. The broader thing is that we're probably all, as a collective, going to be working more together, because we're better together than some of the threats that are facing rivers and facing the Murray-Darling and things that we need to collectively work together across multiple regions.
Speaker 1:I totally agree and that sort of brings us nicely or not nicely to the state of native fish in the basin. So I know you've done a lot of work on this and I was kind of wondering. Actually, at a recent presentation you gave, you actually went through and described the differences between terms like threatened, vulnerable, endangered and critically endangered. I think it might be really useful for people to hear and also where our freshwater fish species are sitting in terms of those categories. Are you able to be really useful for people to hear and also where our freshwater fish species are sitting in terms of those categories? Are you able to run through those for us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I guess, like before, I've done a lot of conservation assessments in recent times, but before that I was assigned a year. Oh, critically endangered, endangered what do these terms mean? And they are easy to change at times and there's all sorts of different uses. So each species when it's getting assessed it's through the International Union for Conservation of Nature, iecn, which some of your listeners would have heard is sort of the gold standard for assessing the status of species, and then that's adopted by EPC, sort of consistent more or less. So you go through to assess the species. There's almost 30 different steps involved and that's once you've made the, once you've drafted the assessment. There's 30 steps of engagement, public consultation, all these kind of different processes to get to that end point of a listed species. So it's a long process. There's five different criteria that relate to population declines, the rate of decline, the range of the species and different threats.
Speaker 2:But essentially, I guess if you're looking at critically endangered, you're really looking at an extremely high risk of the species becoming extinct in the wild. So it might be akin to a 50 chance of survival or extinction, I should say, in the next 10 years. So yeah, I think it's putting those kind of numbers to it I think really crystallizes it in your mind that hey, we're dealing with something that's got a 50 chance of not being around in in the wild. So this isn't just one population in one area, this is the whole species. So when you do hear of a critically endangered species, that's sort of the realm you're dealing with and then it obviously goes down in level of risk. In terms of endangered is about 20% in the next 20 years still under threat.
Speaker 2:That species has probably got more population so it's got threats that aren't just operating on the whole range where a critically endangered species might be in a relatively restricted range and have a single fire come through and place the whole species under threat, whereas an endangered has a little bit more resilience, a bit more capacity to deal with various threats and then obviously vulnerable is a lower threshold. But it still means the species needs our attention, it needs some consideration. It's probably a 10% chance in the next 100 years of it going extinct. So again, really critical to be focusing on those species. But also, I guess every species in some ways needs our attention really, and working on one species doesn't benefit for other species, so there's a fair bit in that as well, just to make sure that a lot of the focus is on threatened species. When there is focus and we can talk about how much focus there is on threatened species, but again we need to be conserving ecosystems, conserving habitat within a region that benefits threatened species but also benefits other species.
Speaker 1:So threatened is the sort of start. Then you go vulnerable, then endangered and then critically endangered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so threatened is just the catch-all to say that it's in one of those threat categories I should mention.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, that's absolutely fine, because you know I'm in this all the time, but I never actually had that explained. So thank you for that. That's very useful. So can you tell me then or maybe I don't want to know, but no, I do want to know where are some of our it's mainly freshwater fish that you've looked at, I think, that are critically endangered? Do?
Speaker 2:we have many in that category, yeah, so getting back to the second part of your question, so a colleague, Mark Littermans, who I think has been on the podcast and some of your listeners will know, led an IECA assessment of all Australian freshwater fish and it showed that 37% are threatened with extinction. So they're in one of those vulnerable, critically endangered categories.
Speaker 1:So 37% Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, across Australia, and so a lot of the trends there's a range of galactic species that occur in the high country occur through Victoria. But what that showed was that there are hot spots of threatened species and I guess you can probably understand some of those more developed areas where there's more people having a lot more threats. But there was also a threatened species in the Kimberley across northern Australia, which is sort of not necessarily what you'd necessarily or what you'd think. You'd think, well, there's relatively a fair bit of water there. There hasn't been quite the development, but I guess it highlighted that there's threatened species all across Australia in terms of freshwater fish and we really again need to be considering them either in a recovery sense or in a sense that there hasn't been the development. We need to be quite careful about how we go about if we are to develop certain areas, how we go about that and how we consider the species that are present there.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like it's not just flow. What else is impacting on these species?
Speaker 2:A lot of things. It is a lot of flow, definitely, I should say, but it's also water extraction. So a number of the small-bodied species particularly use static or wetland habitat. So a lot of our wetlands have received less water. Some have received permanent water and an in-date the whole time, whereas others don't have the water regime they once had. So that's a big issue. This associated habitat destruction they used to take out water, debris and snags from rivers, which is taking out habitat. Alien species is a big one.
Speaker 2:It's fair to say that trout, redfin and carp as well are major impacts to our species. But I guess and this sort of gets to the point about us all working together with climate change is sort of the looming not looming coming is already having influence threat to a lot of these species, freshwater species that we have in Australia. So yeah, there's going to be profound changes to water regime, but also the frequency of droughts and in some areas again down this way, sea level rise will potentially have a huge implication on freshwater habitats in the current Lowell Lakes and Murray Mouth region. So huge threats. And obviously we've seen bushfires, we've seen major floods and the concern is that we've got species that are stressed under regulated systems, seen major floods, and the concern is that we've got species that are stressed under regulated systems and then they have these extreme disturbance events if it's a drought or if it's a bushfire, and they come in more frequently.
Speaker 2:It's the big concern that these events might have been occurring in the past, but less frequent, but now you've got them and your listeners are probably aware of. We've had a bushfire, then we've had a drought, then we're having this and that, but they seem to be the space between those events is becoming shorter and the magnitude of the events is becoming more extreme. So that's a real concern and a real consideration about how we're going about managing threatened species. So you can do a lot of good in the good years when there's habitat, when there's water, but then you're having these extreme events that might undo a lot of that good work, or you've got to manage for and you've got to work out strategies to rescue species or do a whole range of things, get areas that you can protect, all this kind of thing. So, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of threats to deal with for a lot of these species.
Speaker 1:And, in your view, is it about accepting that we're going to lose some species who might have a particular sort of habitat that's not found anymore, that it would be very hard for us to create, so that we look after one species, or, as you were saying, do we go? Well, we know that healthy rivers will benefit a lot, so let's just focus on getting riparian veg in, or is it a mix of different strategies, because it's going to be quite difficult to deliver such a fairly bleak message for people around 37% of species. Where do you think that lies? Or is it just a big combination?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I guess it's. Also I've worked a lot on spiny crayfish and they're even more threatening. There's turtle threatening. So there's a lot of other freshwater species that have been neglected and now we're in a place where we're sort of understanding their status. But it's going to be challenging because, having worked that have been neglected and now we're in a place where we're sort of understanding their status. But it's going to be challenging because, having worked on a number of species, there's one yarra-fing perch that you feel obligated to be protecting, which was impacted during the millennium drought down here in the Lower Lakes.
Speaker 2:Like you think everyone's working on different, you think they've all got to be saved.
Speaker 2:I think that's got to be the starting point that we're not going to accept the loss of certain species but moving forward. Maybe it does have to be a prioritisation where we just accept which is really challenging in your mind and really difficult, because you do become like you're the same for what you work on the upper VGN and all the things you feel personally responsible at times for the fight. So the thing that you're most passionate about and to accept that, okay, we're only going to prioritize certain number of species, is really challenging. I don't. Yeah, I don't think we're quite there yet, um, or need to be quite there yet, but I think, yeah, we've. But I guess we need to be considering if we're not prepared to put the resources in then at a national level or at different levels, we need to accept that, which is, again, it's really daunting, it's really confronting to deal with as an issue. But, yeah, hopefully we're not there yet and we can sort of turn things around before it's too late.
Speaker 1:I think hope is essential and I've often asked people on this podcast you know, what keeps your hope alive? What is it for you? What keeps your hope going? Your optimism, yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 2:I guess you go through cycles, so you look at the bigger picture and go, well, geez, there's a lot of issues confronting you and then you get down into the day-to-day or the actual doing and it's a lot of the team effort. So a lot of these species I've worked on and a lot of conservation success. It's a team effort. So it's passionate people, it's managers, it's scientists, it's everyone local, community, first Nations, groups, all involved. And I guess that's where the motivation comes from and that's where the hope comes from that you can see like-minded people that are just as passionate about preserving something that 99% of the people in Australia don't even know exists. So I guess that's where the hope comes from. But yeah, again, it is that sort of cycle in your head where you start thinking, geez, the impact threats are extreme and how do we deal with all of them for all of these species? And then you again go down to the level of getting involved and doing actions and working with lots of good, passionate people, and that sort of provides you with hope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I know that someone at the team here was saying that they'd woken up early in the morning and you know they were reflecting on hearing about the number of extinctions and just feeling really saddened and upset by it, but that when you sort of get with your team and you know that you're doing the very best you can as an individual trying to affect change, that you can feel that you know you are going to get somewhere. And I know the presentation that you gave to us all at the Stream Management Conference. You actually used the phrase it's now a conscious decision not to act and I was wondering if you can expand a bit on what you meant by that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I guess what I meant by that was that we now have the information. So, whereas we might have been flying blind with a lot of species so, in terms of freshwater fish, there was 33 listed species in Australia in 2019. As of 2024, there's now 63. And for the crayfish, there was three listed in 2019 and this is 2024. There's now 63. And for the crayfish, there was three listed in 2019 and now there's 26. So we have a lot.
Speaker 2:We have the knowledge of the status of a lot of these species. We have a knowledge of what the threats are, what the actions are required, what we need to do, and then there's been some work that's looked at how much it does cost to recover threatened species. So we have some of that information and it's not an astronomical amount. I think during the conference I equated it to how much Australians it's in the billions, but how much Australians spend on pet care and vet bills. So it's not an amount that's off the chart. So we have the knowledge, we have insight about what needs to be done.
Speaker 2:There is still the challenges that are perhaps out of our control about what we do with some of the threatening processes. But yeah, it's definitely a choice now that we're making as a society, as a country, to say, well, we're not prepared to put the resources in for some of these threatened species, for whatever reason. But on the flip side, we do have that opportunity now and I guess that's where it's where the hope still lies that we do have that information. We do have a lot of challenges, yes, but we've got the information. We've got lots of passionate people that have been involved and, yeah, we are at a time that we can make a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was fascinating. Can you remember the figure that you had for the expenditure on pets?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was $33 billion. $33 billion, that's right.
Speaker 1:And so for listeners out there, that's the grooming, that's the food, that's the vets, that's the clothes if you dress your dogs up or your cats up. But I think what that actually shows more is humans connection to animals and how much we value that connection.
Speaker 2:Somehow we need to try and widen the connection so that people in cities or people who just don't know anything about these little fish start to care yeah, and that promotion is is a huge thing and like if people are living their day-to-day life and whatever they're doing, they've got kids that go to get to school and sport and all these kind of things.
Speaker 2:It's like there's other priorities, but it is, yeah, it is. A big part of our roles in this field is to promote as well we can with different people, promote the plight and raise awareness about things that they don't know about and they haven't had an interest in. But you can definitely get people hooked on an unusual species or a little thing that looks pretty nondescript. You can definitely get different groups passionate and interested about them, absolutely. So, yeah, we've made it an ongoing challenge to raise awareness of these species, because it's really critical to raise that profile and get people thinking in a way that they're prepared to make a difference. And if it's voting for people that have got policies that are related to conservation, then that's good. But then that filters down to actual resources for actions on the ground. Can you tell us I? Then that filters down to actual resources for actions on the ground.
Speaker 1:Can you tell us? I know that you have actually rescued a little fish, a few little fish, because it was the Murray hardyhead Can you tell us about that project, Because that's quite a personal one for you? You actually created habitat for that little fish, didn't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so the number of those small body fish that I've worked on. Again, it's a collective effort and I've been fortunate to be involved with some really passionate people. But the Murray hardyhead is one that occurs. It's a salt-tolerant species, occurs throughout the lower lakes but also in off-channel wetland habitats along the southern Murray-Darling Basin. And again, as I talked about, with the loss of wetland habitats in Australia, particularly the Murray-Darling Basin, a lot of their habitats disappear and so now we're finding backup habitats that are saline, saline disposal basins, all these kind of things, and the species thrive. So in the local region we've got a network of backup populations for that species but a number of other ones that in farm dams. But also one of the huge successes that those built beyond wetlands just out of Victor Harbor, not too far from where I am in Goolwa here.
Speaker 2:It's a development, it's an eco-friendly development and the developer is someone out of Steve Wright. It looks like he's out of an Out of Africa movie film, but he's just so passionate about conservation and he's given over. I'm not quite sure how much land it actually is, but there's eight to ten ponds where we've got Murray hardy and we've got different threatened species. It's not for profit groups driving that with the developer and it's such a great success. It's providing backup populations that then can be used to release into the wild. So for Murray, hardyhead, during the millennium drought they were lost from Lake Albert and we've been able to release over 30,000 fish back into the wild and the old one has been detected in Lake Albert and we've been able to release over 30,000 fish back into the wild and they have. The old one has been detected um in Lake Albert. So it's having success. But again, it's that collaboration, that partnership between different groups, not groups that you'd always think would be working together, but it works so well in that instance.
Speaker 1:Never underestimate the power of introducing someone to a little fish, and I, I know that we had a. We were looking after a population of Southern Pygmy perch, trying to reintroduce them to a little Creek in New South Wales, and we were having a, you know, a field day, and so we caught a few of the of the perch and we thought, oh dear, it would be really good to show this in some sort of a glass container. So the landholder nipped home, bought home a glass container really nice looking glass one actually and went down to the local RSL club, had it up as everyone could see. Anyway, his wife came and said what's that fish doing in that wedding gift that we got given? But it looked great.
Speaker 1:And you know there was lots of jokes about. You know you're not going to get much of a feed from a fish that's only about 10 centimetres long, but they started to. You know the landholders started to say, oh, I might have seen one of those. So it's getting that engagement, isn't it? And a bit of humour and fun. That really connects people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's probably another big thing in terms of what's kept me going is the humour side of things. So, as we've discussed, it can be quite bleak and daunting what we're dealing with. But, yeah, having good people that you're dealing with but also having some humour, I think, doesn't mean that you're not as interested or not as passionate, but it just breaks it up and makes people connect with it. It's quite good. It's a huge part of what I like to do. My days don't work.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant, really good. Tell me a little bit about the work that you're doing now then, obviously taking all this wealth of knowledge that you've had from working in different parts of the basin. I'm intrigued to know how you're now working with First Nations in the Coorong and Lower Lakes region, because I know that's a really big focus for you.
Speaker 2:How's that work going? Yeah, so I'll just take you a step back. So at the Coorong and Lower Lakes Marine Mouth Research Centre, it came about from community advocacy saying we need a local research centre in the region. There's been quite a lot of research in this region but they wanted a local presence. And then people do that all the time and nothing comes of it. But actually something came of this which was a bit remarkable. So then the research centre started last July and it's pretty well got the because of how the origins got a mandate to let community but also First Nations, as you mentioned, drive the research agenda. So it's not research coming down from the top saying this is what you're going to work on. It's dealing with connecting with different community members, different community groups and First Nations in Naranjeri here, but also First Nations in the South East, to decide what research the research centre undertakes, and spoken with thousands of people to get priorities, but also managers as well. So it hasn't just been community and First Nations, and it's remarkable that the aligning of priorities so, like you might think, community people have a completely different perspective, first Nations have a different perspective, managers have a different perspective, but a lot of it has aligned. So it's been really. Yeah, it's been a really quick process and really enjoyable to bring people together and there has been the old barf line idea that sort of hasn't got legs. But generally, yeah, it's about looking after the region, it's about water, it's about key biodiversity across the region. So in terms of First Nations, there's been lots of work down here with the Narragerie about getting on country and that's a huge thing. So we're trying to build on that with getting First Nations embedded in research. So obviously there's priorities but also having opportunities to be involved.
Speaker 2:So some of the projects are dealing with extensions. There's been some work on the freshwater soak. So along the coastal dunes, the barrier between the ocean and the Coorong, there's freshwater soak which can be about 300 EC. So you've got the ocean there at 50,000 EC, you've got the Coorong, which could be a specialty of that, and you've got this beautiful fresh water in the sand dunes effectively. So hugely culturally important but also from an ecological sense. So there's been some work through the department environment with different Ngarangjeri, different sort of First Nations groups, and then we are adding to that with a research component that's looking at the water balance for those stoats but also the vulnerability to climate change, and a big part of that will be extending work to get First Nations out of the country.
Speaker 2:So it's, you know, like everyone is recognising the importance of including local First Nations groups and there are challenges, like there's been lots of loss of knowledge through cultural knowledge, through committees, through, obviously, all the impacts that have occurred. So it's about capacity building. It's about raising awareness and also providing a platform, a safe platform, for First Nations to be involved. So we've got a First Nations engagement officer, kyla McHughes, that's really connected across the region and bringing in lots of different First Nations perspectives. It's as simple as language.
Speaker 2:So bringing in language into First Nations language into the research, but also, as I said, getting a safe, comfortable platform for First Nations to be involved. That it's not just, hey, we're doing this, give us your thoughts, give us your perspectives, but actually taking it back to say what are your priorities. And then, how do you want to be engaged into work, in this case of research, because it can be really daunting for everyone. Really, research has somewhat of a sting with it. It's this really intellectual, highbrow thing and people yeah, their knowledge is not worthy to be incorporated. So we're trying to break down that with community as well, that everyone's sort of equal and everyone's views are considered the same. So, yeah, that's sort of where we're trying to go with the research centre and make it a bit more of a connection with community and First Nations.
Speaker 1:I think that's you know. In my experience that's the best place to start is to actually go and look at something that someone knows something about, in this case the freshwater soak, and understand you know how does it work. Then we want to understand the science underpinning how that water is coming up through there, whether it's groundwater, whether it's filtered, whatever it might be from the sea. But yeah, I totally agree with you and I know I do get a bit frustrated when we keep inviting First Nations and community groups into meeting rooms in office blocks that are completely disconnected from what you're actually trying to achieve. You get so much more done when you're on country or you're just looking at something that you all care about. You're much more likely to actually get something done. So I'm delighted to hear that that's the sort of approach and I can see on the banner behind you. You've got First Nations, community Knowledge and then, in big letters, I impact. So I'll be keen to see how that goes. I know you're only just starting out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right and yeah, we are just starting it. So we're definitely trying to live what we're preaching and we've got our research projects kicking off and there's lots of opportunity for involvement.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, we're passionate about it, so we're hoping to achieve a lot that's great, and for any listeners who are down in gore, where you are able to drop into the research center and say, hi, they've got an amazing model there that I've already played with, where it's just super you can move sand. Actually, it's fine glass, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and it you can move it around and you can do the shapes and see where the water moves, and it's very, very cool. So, look, we're coming to an end of this talk, but I know I'm going to be getting in touch with you again because I want to find out more about your doing. But I wanted to actually ask you three questions. Actually, it's going to be four, because I want to know do you have a favourite freshwater fish species? Or it could be diadromous, given that you're down the end there- yes, I do.
Speaker 2:They're all my favourites, but my favourite is probably it's not a fish, it's a crayfish. So the Murray crayfish, which I've done a lot of work on, and my partner, who's an ecologist as well, has done a lot of work on Sylvia yeah, it's the second largest freshwater crayfish in the world. If your listeners have ever seen one, they're pretty impressive, pretty historic beast. That's probably my favourite freshwater animal. Lovely, they're all my favourites. They're like children you can't pick a favourite.
Speaker 1:It's difficult, isn't it, listeners? We will put a picture of a Murray crayfish with the show notes there, so you can see that you've got Nick's favourite one there, but they're all his favourites. We'll make that clear as well. What about a favourite body of water, or river or waterway?
Speaker 2:Again, they're all my favourites. I do have a favourite, but obviously down here, as you say, being connected to the water is impressive. So the Lower Lakes, the Curral and the Murray-Mount Estuary. I was born in Hilston, new South Wales, so I've got a soft spot for the Lachlan, but it would be the Murray River, so I've spent on crayfish surveys particularly a lot of time, often two weeks a year on the Murray during winter, which is a beautiful time. So all the way from the high country down to to the South Australia. So it's, yeah, it's amazing. I love the Murray so much. It's got beautiful spots there and if you're out and about and you sort of have a moment to relax, it's so peaceful, um, then you can forget all the challenges, all the issues that are going on when you're sitting by a body of water, as you, um, as you sort of mentioned in the intro. Um, but yeah, probably the Murray, but they're all my favourite, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think you've answered my next question, which is where you feel most connected, and I know I'm the same. I feel most connected when I'm next to water. Is that, is that right, or am I making an assumption there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely yeah, and next by the coast as well now, but yeah, I still feel more of a connection by fresh water I often need to. Wherever I am or whatever it is, I need to know that there's some water nearby for some reason, if you're not going to visit it or do anything. But yeah, it definitely has a calming influence and yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree, totally agree, and my last question is what drives you to do what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess it's a lot of the things that we talked about, but it is an obligation in some senses that there's times when you felt yourself and a small group of people are the only ones who are responsible for this species. And obviously that's simplifying it a bit. But with some of the species that were lost from the lower lakes and you've got backup populations and you sort of feel like you're not working on these species. So that is is probably what drives you. But it's also yeah, it's, it's as you mentioned it's about doing, doing the best you can. All these you know, sort of challenging issues we're facing.
Speaker 2:But if you can put your head on the pillow each time and feel that you've done your best and tried to achieve things and and I guess there has been successes so you talked about the little southern bimby perch. They were lost during the millennium drought around the lower lakes and through reintroductions, have recovered, so there has been success so I think that that also drives you along, that you can sort of see that what you're doing can have a benefit at times. So it's not all beating your head against the wall. There are successes and outcomes that are positive. So those sort of yeah, those three are probably driving me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and look, I think so many of the people I talk to it's a similar theme that you know. You sort of get to a point where you go, well, look, I can, I'll just do the very best I can, and then, as you say, you put your head on the pillow at the end of the night and say, okay, I've done what I can do, I'll rest now and tomorrow's another day, yeah. So, thank you so much, nick. My pleasure and for listeners, we'll put some links up for you that will take you to the CLEM, to the Coorong Lower Lakes, murray Mouth Research Centre, if you want to go and have a look at that, and we'll also put a few photos up. Nick did a great shout out for World Rivers Day, which has happened just recently, so we'll put some of those photos there for you as well. So until next time, I hope you travel well and we'll talk again soon. Bye for now. I love them all.